Comments on: Nate Phelps and Religious Abuse http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/ Information clearinghouse for research and information about child religious freedom rights. Thu, 02 Sep 2010 02:35:44 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Richard_Collins http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-2012 Richard_Collins Wed, 20 May 2009 21:00:44 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-2012 I have to disagree that the nature of parenting is to brainwash children. This is the attitude of a controlling person and perhaps someone not really understanding the role of a parent. Each child is a separate person that eventually must make their own way in life and a good parent will teach them to think rationally and avoid dogmatic thinking at all costs. Our brains are flexible and we should realize that the essence of life is change. Where people get in trouble is they try to hold on to outdated ideas that are no longer appropriate. Children are not empty vessels that parents should try to fill with ideas and attitudes. Each life is a journey and the goal should be to equip children for the journey not insist they follow the road you personally have followed or the road you think is best for them. Ask questions and never be satisfied with pat answers. Make people substantiate what they tell you is the truth. I have to disagree that the nature of parenting is to brainwash children. This is the attitude of a controlling person and perhaps someone not really understanding the role of a parent. Each child is a separate person that eventually must make their own way in life and a good parent will teach them to think rationally and avoid dogmatic thinking at all costs. Our brains are flexible and we should realize that the essence of life is change. Where people get in trouble is they try to hold on to outdated ideas that are no longer appropriate. Children are not empty vessels that parents should try to fill with ideas and attitudes. Each life is a journey and the goal should be to equip children for the journey not insist they follow the road you personally have followed or the road you think is best for them. Ask questions and never be satisfied with pat answers. Make people substantiate what they tell you is the truth.

]]> By: fizlove http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-1993 fizlove Wed, 20 May 2009 08:40:50 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-1993 Well, I too, would recommend anyone to read Nineteen Eighty Four but certainly not as a "How To" for raising children in the 21st centruy! We have moved on since the 1940s when Orwell wrote it. As a dystopic view of human nature and a preview of how we could all end up abused by power certainly, but please - don't suggest that we are all born abnormal and inappropriate and need to be abused into good behaviour - that is a big ERROR on your part. If you think about it, the idea that we are born abnormal and inappropriate stinks of Original Sin and shows just how long the shadow of christian teaching has projected into the secular view of humanity. Most people reading this post will have some idea of the connection between this "little dogma" and the abuse of children in it's name. It's long overdue to stop propagating it . Read some up-to-date psychology books - and get your head into some books about child development by modern scholars/practitioners. You will learn about the difference between ABUSE and discipline or boundary making and guidance (which children crave, actually). By-the-way - whether mild or revolting, the abuse we suffered by our up-bringing is not a blueprint for the future - we all have to learn from our parents' mistakes too. It is up to the ones who manage to rise above the abuse to speak out and to further the changes in society which make us better than them. Yes - better than them! Well, I too, would recommend anyone to read Nineteen Eighty Four but certainly not as a "How To" for raising children in the 21st centruy! We have moved on since the 1940s when Orwell wrote it. As a dystopic view of human nature and a preview of how we could all end up abused by power certainly, but please – don't suggest that we are all born abnormal and inappropriate and need to be abused into good behaviour – that is a big ERROR on your part. If you think about it, the idea that we are born abnormal and inappropriate stinks of Original Sin and shows just how long the shadow of christian teaching has projected into the secular view of humanity. Most people reading this post will have some idea of the connection between this "little dogma" and the abuse of children in it's name. It's long overdue to stop propagating it .

Read some up-to-date psychology books – and get your head into some books about child development by modern scholars/practitioners. You will learn about the difference between ABUSE and discipline or boundary making and guidance (which children crave, actually).

By-the-way – whether mild or revolting, the abuse we suffered by our up-bringing is not a blueprint for the future – we all have to learn from our parents' mistakes too. It is up to the ones who manage to rise above the abuse to speak out and to further the changes in society which make us better than them. Yes – better than them!

]]> By: rodiel http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-1985 rodiel Wed, 20 May 2009 02:23:13 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-1985 Why feel guilty? The very nature of parenting is that it requires some sort of brainwashing and debilitating a chid's mind, by religious means or not. It's the very purpose of parenting: making a child acceptable for human society. It's a painful process to become "normal" and "appropriate", and can only be achieved by abuse. (Read '1984' - the most enlightening book on the techniques and the mindset of parent-child relationships. It was a quest of self-understanding for me to read it.) I grew up in a secular household but I've been beaten/starved/made to do housework/otherwise tortured a lot. Even now, I'm afraid my mother, though she's much weaker than me. Other children were like you, not abused physically but scarred in the mind forever. Even others fell sort of in between. Only the means differ, and maybe the extent, but the purpose is the same: to kill individuality. Why feel guilty? The very nature of parenting is that it requires some sort of brainwashing and debilitating a chid's mind, by religious means or not. It's the very purpose of parenting: making a child acceptable for human society. It's a painful process to become "normal" and "appropriate", and can only be achieved by abuse. (Read '1984' – the most enlightening book on the techniques and the mindset of parent-child relationships. It was a quest of self-understanding for me to read it.)

I grew up in a secular household but I've been beaten/starved/made to do housework/otherwise tortured a lot. Even now, I'm afraid my mother, though she's much weaker than me. Other children were like you, not abused physically but scarred in the mind forever. Even others fell sort of in between. Only the means differ, and maybe the extent, but the purpose is the same: to kill individuality.

]]> By: Stanley S. Chesters http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-913 Stanley S. Chesters Mon, 20 Apr 2009 05:37:59 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-913 Nate Phelps - wasnt that the same guy who left his three children to run away with a chick he met over the 'net? No wonder they drove from Canada to Georgia for the conference. Southwest would have charged Nate for two seats. As a Christian, I know that not all religion is child abuse. Nate was just an extreme case. I sure hope he doesn't abuse his kids - is he still even in contact with them? - like he claims that Fred abused him. I feel sorry for Nate's kids, caught in the crossfire of all this. Nate Phelps – wasnt that the same guy who left his three children to run away with a chick he met over the 'net? No wonder they drove from Canada to Georgia for the conference. Southwest would have charged Nate for two seats.

As a Christian, I know that not all religion is child abuse. Nate was just an extreme case. I sure hope he doesn't abuse his kids – is he still even in contact with them? – like he claims that Fred abused him. I feel sorry for Nate's kids, caught in the crossfire of all this.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-865 Elizabeth Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:18:06 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-865 Adam Nobody knows whether God exists or not - so what - but - Inconsistent with the Bible?!?!? I would say that it is adherence to Bible that is the problem with people like the Fred Phelps not whether or not there exists a God...because with the Bible - you can pick and chose to suit any vile predilection - because it's all in there - read it. "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14) (lifted from a christian web site discussing discipline of children) Seeing that such biblical verses as the ones above are available to any christian to follow - what determines their particular choice between them? Would that be determined by personal choice? Would you agree that it is very much open to abuse by anyone who professes belief in the Bible as the word of God? Either the Holy Ghost does guide the believer to do his bidding or it does not. What must we do about those who abuse their children by justifying it with the divine word of God??? Why can't we use our reason and admit that it is not Gods word at all and call the bull-s***ters out? You seem like a reasoning type of person, which is why I don't understand why you don't admit that the Bible is ambiguous and will be used by anyone who claims it as Gods word - whether they are sadistic, psychopathic, monsters or angelic mild mannered gentlemen(such as your Dad). I can think of only one other book which can be used in this way. All manner of barbarous acts are committed every day all around the world in the name of both the Bible and the Koran. All of them can claim justification somewhere between their pages. That's the trouble with Holy Books!! Adam

Nobody knows whether God exists or not – so what – but – Inconsistent with the Bible?!?!? I would say that it is adherence to Bible that is the problem with people like the Fred Phelps not whether or not there exists a God…because with the Bible – you can pick and chose to suit any vile predilection – because it's all in there – read it.

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)
"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)
(lifted from a christian web site discussing discipline of children)

Seeing that such biblical verses as the ones above are available to any christian to follow – what determines their particular choice between them? Would that be determined by personal choice? Would you agree that it is very much open to abuse by anyone who professes belief in the Bible as the word of God? Either the Holy Ghost does guide the believer to do his bidding or it does not. What must we do about those who abuse their children by justifying it with the divine word of God??? Why can't we use our reason and admit that it is not Gods word at all and call the bull-s***ters out?

You seem like a reasoning type of person, which is why I don't understand why you don't admit that the Bible is ambiguous and will be used by anyone who claims it as Gods word – whether they are sadistic, psychopathic, monsters or angelic mild mannered gentlemen(such as your Dad).

I can think of only one other book which can be used in this way. All manner of barbarous acts are committed every day all around the world in the name of both the Bible and the Koran. All of them can claim justification somewhere between their pages.

That's the trouble with Holy Books!!

]]> By: Adam Wolven http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-861 Adam Wolven Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:18:57 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-861 hey, fair enough. If you do not believe in any metaphysical reality than, yes, I sound crazy. BUT if we are looking at the conduct of religious men as fathers (my dad, Mr. Phelps, etc) as evidence to whether or not religion is good or bad I just want to make the case that there are just as many great examples as bad examples. I'm sure there are just as many good and bad atheist fathers as well - can conduct really be used as evidence? Also, I feel like Phelps example is not representative of true Biblical faith- which does not include: abuse, indoctrination, hate, etc. Nope, the Bible says that love is others-focused, patient, kind, not envious, arrogant, etc. ( 1Cor 13:4-) You know what James, I think that is why I had to comment in the first place. I just feel like Nate Phelps experience is really common... and it kills me because people like Mr. Phelps misrepresent the truth of the Bible. Now, I know you don't believe there is a metaphysical/magical reality to the Bible, but when looking at the people who represent it, I think it fair to point out that we are a mixed bag. I just want to make sure the good examples get represented as well. cool? Thanks for dialoguing! hey, fair enough. If you do not believe in any metaphysical reality than, yes, I sound crazy. BUT if we are looking at the conduct of religious men as fathers (my dad, Mr. Phelps, etc) as evidence to whether or not religion is good or bad I just want to make the case that there are just as many great examples as bad examples. I'm sure there are just as many good and bad atheist fathers as well – can conduct really be used as evidence? Also, I feel like Phelps example is not representative of true Biblical faith- which does not include: abuse, indoctrination, hate, etc. Nope, the Bible says that love is others-focused, patient, kind, not envious, arrogant, etc. ( 1Cor 13:4-)

You know what James, I think that is why I had to comment in the first place. I just feel like Nate Phelps experience is really common… and it kills me because people like Mr. Phelps misrepresent the truth of the Bible. Now, I know you don't believe there is a metaphysical/magical reality to the Bible, but when looking at the people who represent it, I think it fair to point out that we are a mixed bag. I just want to make sure the good examples get represented as well. cool?

Thanks for dialoguing!

]]> By: James Tracy http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-859 James Tracy Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:54:42 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-859 I feel more comfortable making that assumption than assuming that something magical is going on. I feel more comfortable making that assumption than assuming that something magical is going on.

]]> By: Adam Wolven http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-858 Adam Wolven Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:43:52 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-858 so you're making an assumption... about someone you don't know- that's very evangelical of you... hhahah just kidding bro. so you're making an assumption… about someone you don't know- that's very evangelical of you… hhahah just kidding bro.

]]> By: James Tracy http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-840 James Tracy Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:19:24 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-840 So? So?

]]> By: Adam Wolven http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/04/nate-phelps-and-religious-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-838 Adam Wolven Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:07:43 +0000 http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/?p=498#comment-838 says the man who does not know my dad. says the man who does not know my dad.

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