Nate Phelps and Religious Abuse

 

I hope to post several blogs inspired by the American Atheists Conference, but for right now, I’m going to write about the experience that was the most meaningful to me.  I mentioned before going that I was anxious to hear Nate Phelpsspeak, and I have to say that his speech was much more than I expected.  For one thing, I learned afterwards that this was the first time he’s spoken publicly about his experiences.  For another, in speaking with his wife, I learned that they had driven forty-one hours from British Columbia to Atlanta so that he could speak.  

 

Nate Phelps

Nate Phelps

 

 

Nate’s speech, which lasted for around forty minutes, was sometimes painful to listen to.  He spoke of horrible, despicable acts of abuse, both physical and mental, and of the tyrannical, sociopathic dictator of a father who literally made the lives of his wife and thirteen children a living hell.  He read his speech, rather nervously, and it was obvious that he is still living with the mental scars of his upbringing.  At one point, he showed us the kind of  handle Fred used to beat his children — a four or five foot long piece of wood not unlike an axe-handle.  He explained how his father learned the most effective ways of causing excruciating pain;  for instance, he would hit his children in one particular spot enough that a bruise would raise up and blood would accumulate over the course of ten or fifteen minutes, and then he would hit them again in the same spot, causing the skin to break, and inflicting terrible pain.  When he was particularly irate, he would hit them behind the knee, or on the small of the back, where the pain would be the most searing and brutal.

Like everyone else in the room, I listened with a mix of shock, rage, and pity.  We all felt sympathy for him, and also pride and admiration at the physical bravery and mental courage he’s shown since deciding to leave the family.  But I felt an additional emotion, and after the speech was over, I was lucky enough to be able to tell him personally what it had meant to me.  In listening to Nate, I discovered something about myself that was deeply disturbing, but has instilled in me a new sense of determination to end the power of parents to indoctrinate their children into religion.

As I’ve said before, I don’t like talking much about my own life, but I must do so now to make my point clearly.  I have nothing on Nate Phelps.  I was mainly raised by my mother, who loved me and doted over me and never once, in my entire childhood, did anything with the intention of causing me pain.  Though I was probably over-sheltered, anyone looking at my upbringing would probably say that it was about as good as anyone could expect.

However, I was indoctrinated into religion.  We were in church every Sunday morning, and most Sunday nights, as well as Wednesdays at various points of my life.  In many ways, church was my most frequent social activity, and though my indoctrination was not mean-spirited, it was thorough.  By the time I was in high school, I was a full fledged born again Christian, and I thought quite poorly of everyone who was not (and many who were, but didn’t live up to my standards).  I went to Vacation Bible School, and summer camps not unlike that in Jesus Camp.  We went to healing services, prayer services, Bible studies, exorcisms, Christian Values seminars, Christian Finance seminars, evangelism crusades, and Christian music concerts.  My mother and my grandmother, despite being warm, compassionate, loving people, brainwashed and indoctrinated me into not only the Christian faith, but also the Christian mindset — nonrational, repressive, patriarchal, divisive, and exclusionary.

Back to Nate Phelps.  As I was listening to his speech, there were several moments when tears welled up in my eyes, my heart raced, and I felt as if I was having trouble breathing.  At first I thought I was feeling sympathy for Nate, but I quickly realized that wasn’t the case.  I wasn’t moved to tears at hearing about how Fred beat his children, or about how he made them run 20 miles a day after selling candy in strip clubs for seven hours.  I was moved to tears when he spoke of the mental anguish he felt while his child brain tried to work through the cognitive dissonance, and the outright absurdity of the beliefs that his father had brainwashed him into accepting.

I was not feeling sympathy.  I was reliving my own childhood.

That realization hit me like a ton of bricks, and brought a whole new set of emotions.  Even after more than a decade of being an outspoken atheist activist, living hundreds of miles from home, and leaving my Christian life behind, I am still moved to tears when I remember how hard it was for me to break free from religion.  My chest still constricts when I recall the cold sweats that came unbidden when I pondered the “reality” of hell as a true believer.  I feel rage when I remember sitting on the toilet after masturbating, feeling intense guilt at having succumbed to weakness — again — and even more guilt for enjoying it, and even more guilt for not being good enough to remove myself from my own sexual desires.  I remember the first girl who wanted to date me in high school.  Mary.  (I can’t recall her last name.)  I was terrified of her, and even more terrified of holding hands with her or kissing her, because I had been taught in church and in Bible Camp that even such seemingly innocuous activities could lead to the fires of hell, since they were gateways into premarital sex.  I held hands with Mary once, and then told her I couldn’t go out with her.

My mother didn’t intend to cause me mental distress.  She had no idea that after hearing one particularly charismatic (and fundamentalist) preacher, I would — for nearly three weeks — keep myself awake at night for fear that as I drifted off to sleep, my thoughts would stray to something sexual (and therefore wrong) and I would be possessed by a demon.  She had no idea that I would marry the first girl I dated seriously so that I wouldn’t feel guilty about having sex anymore.  How could she possibly have known that even though her own views were substantially more moderate than many of our preachers, my vulnerable brain would soak in and accept the most draconian views with which I was presented?

The answer is that she couldn’t know.  She is innocent of the charge Intent to Cause Mental Harm.  Nevertheless, I was mentally harmed, and decades later, when I listened to someone who I should have almost nothing in common with, I felt the same emotions he was feeling, because I had experienced them, too.  Make no mistake — Nate Phelps has been abused in far more ways than me.  He was the victim of intentional, mean-spirited, sociopathic physical, mental, and emotional abuse.  He was the victim of intentional brainwashing, fear-mongering, and vicious repression.  His father is a horrible, horrible man who should be locked up.

Yet, as I sat there, I realized that I, too, was abused.  My abuse was unintentional, but does that make the tears I shed yesterday any less real?  Even as I type these words, I feel a pang of guilt.  Even though I am emotionally distant from my mother, and have been so since leaving religion, it galls me at a very deep level to admit to myself, much less to thousands of readers, that my mother subjected me to brainwashing and emotional abuse.  I want desperately to clear her of the charges, for she meant well.  She never wanted anything but the best for me, but because she, too, was brainwashed, she unintentionally heaped on me the same baggage she has carried her whole life, and still carries to this day.

On one level, I can’t empathize with Nate Phelps.  I have no frame of reference from which to try to imagine what he went through.  On another level, I know precisely what he experienced because I went through it, too.  Nate’s wife told me that he had been feeling as if he didn’t have anything meaningful to say to a bunch of atheists, but he couldn’t have been more wrong.  He is a product of one of the worst kinds of religious abuse, but his story casts glaring light on the dirty fact that even the most well-intentioned religious indoctrination is still religious indoctrination — and therefore,still abuse.

I am now more firmly convinced than ever that any pretense of religious moderation is a lie.  Religious indoctrination is child abuse.  Religious indoctrination that includes lies about human sexuality is sexual abuse.  Abuse committed by those who did not intend to abuse is still abuse.  Those who would dismiss Nate Phelps as the product of a mentally ill extremist would be partially correct.  Most theists love their children and try not to cause them harm.  However, the stark clarity of Nate’s religious abuse cannot be so easily dismissed.  If we are honest, I believe that most of us who grew up in a religiously indoctrinating environment would have to admit that we suffered.  Perhaps not everyone was as sensitive as me, but does the sensitivity of the victim change the nature of the crime?   Do we punish rapists based on how much mental trauma was suffered by the victim, or by the nature of the crime itself?  We can no longer look at religious indoctrination and turn a blind eye.  It is abuse, and if we are not standing firmly against it, we are silently condoning it.

 

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Posted on Sunday, April 12th, 2009 at 3:01 pm in Activism, Childhood Indoctrination, Children's rights, Religion.

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Comments (41)

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Of course it's fine for you to promote this article in all the ways you mention.

Ending the power of childhood religious indoctrination is a very tricky subject, and it's a total legal minefield, as I'm sure you're aware. There are many questions that probably don't have clear cut answers, and a Supreme Court that is unlikely to err on the side of the non-religious in any case.

How does one define "religious indoctrination" legally?
How does one constitutionally rule out said indoctrination as acceptable behavior?
Having addressed it constitutionally, how does one address it in the penal code? Can you imagine the uproar from all sides the first time a state government tries to take away a child because the parent made him go to church?

I think the only plausible answer at this time is education, and lots of it. As you mention, we know worlds more than we did fifty years ago. Dr. Andrew Thompson gave a speech at the Convention, and he said rather confidently that we are perhaps only a decade away from being able to write the definitive textbook on the cognitive psychology of religion. Once we have that curriculum, it will be inexcusable to allow it to get tossed to the side by those who would prefer not to address it. The moral implications will be too great.

Many of the most religiously brainwashed people would choose god over their children. It happens all the time, in fact. However, there is much hope in the middle, where normal love and human decency will prevail if people are taught just how undeniable is the link between religious indoctrination and lifelong mental trauma.

In the meantime, I think we must apply political pressure in cases of obvious religious abuse. Dr. Richard Dawkins publicly called on Nate Phelps to once again try to use legal measures to put his father in jail and free his siblings and mother from his tyranny. Many of the children are accomplished lawyers, and fight on his side, and Kansas is notoriously soft on religion in courts, so the task may be enormous, but this and other cases must be pushed. We must encourage rulings that give states the power to classify at least the most egregious cases of religious abuse as legally equivalent to mental or physical abuse. My personal hope is that within a few decades, we can build an educated American public that will support international calls for children's rights that include freedom from religious oppression.

Krista

Thank you for sharing your deeply personal story. By the end of reading this I was sobbing. I went through very similar things growing up and feel the same way about my parents. I really don't care what it will take to end indoctrination, I'm willing to do anything that needs to be done. We're at the very beginning of a very long fight against something that is currently widely unseen. We can't be daunted by the long path to improvement. It's worth it.

Hamby, I would like to post a link to this article on Twitter and post excerpts to Amazon.com. I think James has it set to send notifications automatically to facebook, but I cannot confirm I always see notification on Twitter. I am new to Twitter. You write:

"Abuse committed by those who did not intend to abuse is still abuse."

I have said that when a reckless driver kills someone, we don't inquire into whether or not he loved his victim. We are examine the result of what people do.

I agree, we have a decision to make as a society. Shall we stand by while delusional parents infect their children with their delusion and do nothing? Or shall we embark on a massive educational campaign to end the practice of subjecting vulnerable children to a mind control program.

The US Supreme Court, when they ruled that parents had the right to teach their children the tenets and practices of their religion, could never imagine the sophisticated tools and practices that would develop, nor did they have any research to show the deleterious effects. Times have changed and the law must change. We must put the onus on theists to prove that creating mental anguish in children is beneficial to children or to society. Without the dogma of sin and salvation Christianity is empty of any meaning. It is the quintessential teaching of Christianity. Else how would anyone make any sense out of films that portray the Passion of Christ? Around the world it is still possible to observe bloody crucifixion statuary even though "progressive" Catholics and others have relegated these horrible icons to a dusty storage shed or basement. .

But first, we will likely have to impeach Scalia and Thomas. I'll bet there is a facebook group or web site out there somewhere. What do you think?

I'll stumble this post.

"I would marry the first girl I dated seriously so that I wouldn’t feel guilty about having sex anymore"

You too huh? I came so close to doing the same thing, and I am furious at the people who stood by and did nothing.

I really connected with what you wrote. Well done.

Elizabeth

OMG! I didn't realize that this is exactly what happened to me. You put it so well and summed it up completely. Even the most loving , kind hearted parents inflict emotional abuse on their children. It's very hard to call it that BUT… as Prof Dawkins says…we need to raise consciousness throughout society and it MUST start with people like you and me who have personally experienced the psychological damage caused by childhood indoctrination.

Thank you for posting this.

SarahH

Thank you for sharing this; I had a very similar upbringing (to yours, not to Nate's) and have felt similarly for quite some time now. I even went so far as to tell my parents that I felt sorry for my younger siblings, because they are completely trapped in my parents' fundamentalist beliefs, never having been given a choice. I feel guilty sometimes, because I don't know exactly what benefit I've had that they haven't that allowed me to break free.

Silver

Thank you so very much for sharing not only Nate Phelps story, but also yours. Stories like this make me realize that we just stand by and let even 'moderate' religious people do as they will.

Most of the time I'm perfectly fine letting them do as they will, while being annoyed at the most radical of their group, but now I know that even they can cause harm.

Would you mind if I linked this to my friends and social networks? This is something that I believe everyone should be aware of.

Once again, thank you. This story has touched me in ways that I can never fully express online.

I should not presume to speak for Hamby, but I believe he would be delighted if you share this insightful post. We are a new web site, although I have had a blogspot blog for some time and the group on Facebook is about a year old. So we do encourage new contacts. What networks are you in?

AnonyMouse

Reading your story, I too find myself moved to tears, for the very same reasons that you found yourself moved listening to Nate Phelps.

I have told my story on the Internet many times, and each time I feel a little bit better. But there is still something missing – something that I have not mentioned, or have touched on in only the shallowest sense. I refer to the spiritual abuse that I endured in the two weeks following my deconversion, including the three days in which my parents knew that I was not a Christian.

Unlike many people, I did not have any problems with sexual desires. While the Bible did its God-given best to instill the fear of lust in me – and I certainly believed every word of it – I have never had particularly strong sexual desires, and so I was free from that particular torment.

But what I lacked in sexual urges, I made up for in love.

It's just the way I am. I love everyone – my family, the church, the well-meaning but utterly misguided elders, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, atheists, animals, and Hitler. My family taught me that this was the love of God – that one must have God's spirit dwelling inside them to feel this way toward their fellow men.

Even after I realized that the God I worshiped was not the true God, I still believed that I had a spirit living inside me – and that that spirit was the cause of my love for all other creatures. Since I wanted nothing to do with such a deceptive spirit, one of my first acts as an ex-Christian was to kick all of that love as far away from myself as I possibly could and keep it out.

I remained in that state for two weeks. I drifted around in a cold fog, unable to feel warmth or joy or even the simple pleasures of music or a cat's purr. The best I could muster was a highly sardonic sense of humor toward my state in life and the conditions that had led me there. For two long weeks, I believed that was how I was supposed to be – alone, loveless, never truly happy. Because that's what my parents had told me I would be like without God. And I, in my naivete, believed them.

Is it any wonder my parents thought I was possessed by an evil spirit?

And yet those two weeks would pale in comparison to the next three days. Because I, a brand-new deconvert and ready to denounce the word of the Lord, couldn't keep my mouth shut. And my parents found out that I was no longer a Christian.

They were, as to be expected, full of sympathy and support. My dad's first words were "Well, you'd better start believing, because if you don't you're going to Hell," and they just got more cheerful from there. We shouted. We cried. My mother turned beet red as she tried desperately to re-cram her beliefs down my throat. One point I remember clearly was when she, her face streaked with tears, told me that she'd noticed something was wrong. "It's like you're not even you anymore," she said. "That spark is gone."

"But I'm still me," I insisted. I was trying to convince both of us.

At any point, did she recognize my real condition and try to reach me through love? Never. There I was, trapped in a living Hell, and she kept on doing the only things she knew how to do. "It's like you're dead," she said, "but it's worse, because your souls are lost and you're still alive." At one point, when our horns were deeply locked over a matter of Scripture, she tried to cast a demon out of me.

(This was actually a turning point for me, when I finally realized that I was not possessed and was just a rational human being. It would help to support my complete deconversion later on.)

The last straw was when my mother – the paragon of sympathy and support, you remember – decided it was time to announce that she thought she was terminally ill.

I exploded. No, that's not even the right term. Here I was, struggling spiritually, having the worst time of my life and hoping beyond all hope that maybe my mother – my guiding light and beacon of love for my entire life – could give me some aid. What I got was "You're going to hell, and BTW, I'm dying."

I'm glad – sort of – to say that things got better after that. I feigned a reconversion, rediscovered my ability to love (fortunately for me, it was hiding dormant somewhere in my lower chest), and am now fairly happy and fulfilled as an atheist. But I can never forgive Christianity for what it did to me and my mother.

I remember the following (from Nate Phelps) from another article:

The turning point was one Christmas, when Nate decided to teach his children about God. In the end, his son Tyler began crying in the backseat of the car, saying that he didn’t want to go to hell.

“He wanted to believe because he didn’t want to go to hell,” Nate said. “I was just stunned because I didn’t know what I had said or how I had left him with that fear. I thought I was doing a good job of presenting it without the fear.

“Thinking about it after the fact, I realized you can’t do that. With a young mind it doesn’t matter. You can try as much as you want to talk about how good God is, but the bottom line is there’s this intolerably frightening punishment if you don’t accept it. And how does a young mind deal with that?”

[...] everybody on the planet burning in Hell for eternity. This is according to one of his children, Nate Phelps, who has spent some time attempting to distance himself from the physical abuse, and mentally [...]

I'll be happy to respond for me, and yes, I'd be thrilled if you shared this, and encouraged all of your friends to do so as well. I'm very deeply moved that I seem to be touching a nerve with a lot of people. If this article helps people, and helps to end indoctrination, I'd be happy for it to be read by as many people as possible.

He talked about this during the American Atheists Conference speech. It was obvious that this event had a deep emotional impact on him, and he received a very warm round of applause after he said that this event made him vow to himself not to inflict the same thing on his children that he had experienced.

Great post. I'm humbled by both Nate's and your experiences. It's the atheists who remember how scary it was leaving their faith who are most valuable, because you're most effective in applying that knowledge to friends and family still on the "inside".

Parents will always try to imbibe thier children with the best morals they can- I certainly will with mine, and part of that will include a relationship of love with god and all life, and that's got nothing to do with punishment if you don't do as the bibble sez. It's the people who apply the religeon, not the religeon itself that is the problem (that said, I hate organised religeon, all of 'em)
I think his dad woulda been an asshole with or without religeon. y'gotta keep in mind, the staunch 'moralities' were designed to keep an older, less civil populace in line, and was appropriate for the time. Like we can eat pork now that we know the eveil is but humble salmonella, the specifics need a sore updating with the current world, the real world, but solving the fundimentalist problem wont be achieved with simple vilifacation.

Mike, this was an insight I came to about three years ago and it inspired me to start an international initiative to end hereditary religion. I have spent hours reading the personal accounts of people who awakened and other countless hours in conversation with parents who force religion on their children. The two camps are separated by a huge chasm. The bottom line is parents have no idea what they are doing to their children. Somewhere in the back of their minds they realize it isn't right, but their delusion is too strong. Hereditary religion is caused by a syndrome and if we work at it we will find an effective way to break the chain. Check out Apostate Alley, a resource of links posted on http://www.secularearth.com. Join our group on facebook if you like:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10129512247

The problem is way bigger than fundamentalists. The problem is faith and accepting illogical concepts. We must raise a few generations free of dogma and superstition. Then organized religion will have to reform or go out of business. Either event is ok with me. There are good features about religion that people can benefit from, community and the encouragement to do good works. We just must throw out the superstition and the idea that faith is a virtue.

Children's religious freedom will probably not come about through the court. The courts usually lag popular sentiment by a long shot. Not always, but in the present climate the courts will not be of much help. Change will have to come about over the kitchen table. One person at a time.

However as sentiment is shifting against religion and non-belief gains more open adherents it may be possible to use the court to battle tax shelters and other privileges. The court of public opinion is opening up to our side of the arguments. I say this based on the articles I pick up and the comments to those articles. The national press is much more willing to devote space to secular views.

The problem is way bigger than fundamentalists. The problem is faith and accepting illogical concepts that have no evidence for support. We must raise a few generations free of dogma and superstition. Then organized religion will have to reform or go out of business. Either event is ok with me. There are good features about religion that people can benefit from — community and the encouragement to do good works. What has to go is belief in superstition and the idea that faith is a virtue.

Jessica Anderson

Thank you for sharing this very moving post…. I too was reduced to tears. I luckily was not indoctrinated but did grow up in a big bible belt and have so many stories of kids I grew up.

Adam Wolven

Thanks for sharing your experience, I can feel your pain. I'm a pretty sensitive man myself and was also raised in a religious household. My father was warm, caring, and loved me unconditionally. I think it is fair to represent the flip side of the coin and mention that my experience was the absolute opposite. It was my dad's faith that gave me the most security over the years. He humbly attributed his success as a man and a father to God's work in his life. I know that this isn't everyone's experience and that weighs heavy on my heart- but through my dad's faith I experienced a depth of love and security that has profoundly blessed my life.

Yes, different children experience the conditioning differently. It is also true that as in children who are physically abused, there is a marked tendency for people to look back and forgive. You sound like an exception though and there is no way to read anything into your comment other than this is a heartfelt conviction you hold. The web is overflowing with personal accounts of people's brush with religion. Leaving always comes at a personal cost and can bring sorrow and sadness to friends and family members. I am convinced that most parents who consign their children to religious indoctrination are totally unaware of what this does to millions of people. The wounded are mostly silent because they feel speaking out would mark them as disloyal. There are many passages in the bible that are intolerant of apostasy. Religion is not totally benign, regardless of how much adherents would like us to believe this.

Elizabeth

Adam

I wonder if you are attributing your Father's goodness to his faith alone. Could it simply be that your Father was a good man and would have been so without a faith? It is impossible to tell from the short history you give. That HE attributed his goodness to his faith is quite likely to be a factor of conditioning and of his faith in the power of God over his life. In other words "he would say that, wouldn't he".

Would I be wrong in assuming that you also still share this faith?

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/moder...

Ryon, please read this article before you decide that it's the implementation of religion, not religion itself.

Good point, Elizabeth. My mother is also a very loving and kind person. I am a loving and kind person as well, and frankly, I became moreso after I left religion. Some people are kind, while others are cruel. To attribute either to religious faith is to take responsibility away from the person.

Part of what is so alluring about religion is that it takes credit for things that happen naturally. If someone does a good deed, it was because of their faith. Nevermind that people without faith are as charitable (if not more) than theists. When a theist did it, it's because of their faith.

As I think of my atheist friends who are parents, I reflect on their selflessness, their devotion, their tenderness, and their unwavering commitment to giving their children the best upbringing possible. They need no religion to do this, and their children will never have to look back at them and ask them why they had to suffer through any of the absurdities of religious doctrine.

To put it another way, if Adam's father was only good because of religion, I feel very bad for Adam.

Luise Grav

All upbringing is indoctrination. Perhaps your children will feel they have been abused because they feel they have been indoctrinated with atheistic ideas…..Get over it…..whatever your upbringing….suck it up. You get a turn at parenting if you choose….I bet your ofspring will have some complaints and regrets as well. There comes a time when you must grow up and take responsibility for your own state of mind.

Adam Wolven

yeah, I totally share this faith. I believe that my father would not have been any where near as good a man without Christ in his life. (Look, I'm saying this objectively, I've had my share of conflicts with him and it took some intentionality to make amends). I think it is the Spirit of God in him that lead him to apologize when after huge arguments or to remain totally faithful to my mom for 30+ yrs. He owns my respect. Conditioning? This makes sense and I totally see how you would think this. My dad did condition me to some things, but faith was different. When you think of Christ as a person who is present in both my life and my dad's life- it would make sense that we both have different relationships with Christ. What I am saying is that I have seen how Christ's relationship with my dad has influenced him and made him a better man- and I have benefited from this as his son. The Bible talks about the fruit of the Spirit being love, joy, peace, patience, etc (Galatians 5:22). I grieve that Nate Phelps dad misrepresented Christ. My experience with the person Jesus Christ has been pleasant and kind. My dad was also a jerk at times- but the goodness that came out of him came by the grace of God. Same for me too!

Adam Wolven

"I am now more firmly convinced than ever that any pretense of religious moderation is a lie. Religious indoctrination is child abuse. Religious indoctrination that includes lies about human sexuality is sexual abuse." I've been thinking more about this. It freaks me out because I believe it is a misconception based on failures from people who identify themselves as "religious" or "Christian." After reading through the Bible for several years now I have to say that this is absolutely not what it's about. It's about a restored relationship with a loving God. Now, in fairness, I know that "forcing others to adhere to a dogma" has been many people's experience, but I think it worth mentioning that this is inconsistent with the text. Seriously, this is why Jesus had words with Pharisees- because they were committing religious abuse.

Elizabeth

Well Adam, I can say this to you – I am happy that it works for you but from my perspective as the daughter of christian missionaries, there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit. How else could you explain the great gaps between "Spirit" filled goodness which were filled by hateful bigotry and meanness that made up my Dad? You would probably say that those times were when the Devil entered in and made him nasty. But I would say that it is neither of these (since they don't actually exist) and that notions of Holy Spirit and of the Devil are, at best, allegories which represent conflicts within. Over the years since I have been grown I have come to realise that his willingness to lay the blame on the Devil meant that he never tackled the real source of his pain. There was deep turmoil within the man which led him into emotional states he had no strategies for overcoming. I believe that my Father felt that he was essentially bad and so when along came Billy Graham who confirmed that yes, he was truly unacceptable in God's eyes – but that it could all be wiped clean, all he had to do was BELIEVE, he fell for it big time – it all made sense and gave him an exit strategy from his sinful nature. Except that it didn't stop his moods from turning nasty, it just meant that he was forgiven for being weak and letting the Devil in. He just had to pray harder.

At worst, allowing yourself to blame the Devil for when you are mean and nasty is simply to absolve yourself of responsibility and deny the need to try harder. Giving God/Holy Spirit the credit for goodness is a massive hindrance to psychological well being. We can all be good of our own volition and our goal should really be to learn how to do this more and more without resorting to imagined supernatural forces.

By-the-way, if your "Good Dad" was merely the Holy Spirit – where would you say "Jerk Dad" came from? If you can say with a straight face that it was the Devil, then we had better leave this exchange where it rests and we can both move along.

Adam Wolven

hahahaa… no, I would not say that my "jerk dad" came from the devil. And yes, I agree with you, I believe that people can be good without the presence of the Holy Spirit in their life. Again, I'm just saying the evidence I saw in my dad's behavior convinced me that there was in fact a metaphysical reality (Holy Spirit) to his growth and character. If we are looking at the "conduct" of people the theists as evidence to the nonexistence of God or to evaluate whether or not religion is good then I felt it worth mentioning that there are plenty of positive experiences for children in religious homes as well.

Also, I totally agree that many people in the church commit "spiritual/religious abuse." Emotional manipulation is wrong, though common in some churches. I just want to make the point that these practices, as modeled by Nate's father, are inconsistent with the Bible (Gal 5:22).

Adam, there is nothing from your dad's behavior that demonstrates convincingly the existence of any sort of metaphysical reality other than perhaps your desire to believe in one. Such behavior can manifest itself just fine without any ghosts – holy or otherwise.

Adam Wolven

says the man who does not know my dad.

So?

Adam Wolven

so you're making an assumption… about someone you don't know- that's very evangelical of you… hhahah just kidding bro.

I feel more comfortable making that assumption than assuming that something magical is going on.

Adam Wolven

hey, fair enough. If you do not believe in any metaphysical reality than, yes, I sound crazy. BUT if we are looking at the conduct of religious men as fathers (my dad, Mr. Phelps, etc) as evidence to whether or not religion is good or bad I just want to make the case that there are just as many great examples as bad examples. I'm sure there are just as many good and bad atheist fathers as well – can conduct really be used as evidence? Also, I feel like Phelps example is not representative of true Biblical faith- which does not include: abuse, indoctrination, hate, etc. Nope, the Bible says that love is others-focused, patient, kind, not envious, arrogant, etc. ( 1Cor 13:4-)

You know what James, I think that is why I had to comment in the first place. I just feel like Nate Phelps experience is really common… and it kills me because people like Mr. Phelps misrepresent the truth of the Bible. Now, I know you don't believe there is a metaphysical/magical reality to the Bible, but when looking at the people who represent it, I think it fair to point out that we are a mixed bag. I just want to make sure the good examples get represented as well. cool?

Thanks for dialoguing!

Elizabeth

Adam

Nobody knows whether God exists or not – so what – but – Inconsistent with the Bible?!?!? I would say that it is adherence to Bible that is the problem with people like the Fred Phelps not whether or not there exists a God…because with the Bible – you can pick and chose to suit any vile predilection – because it's all in there – read it.

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)
"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)
(lifted from a christian web site discussing discipline of children)

Seeing that such biblical verses as the ones above are available to any christian to follow – what determines their particular choice between them? Would that be determined by personal choice? Would you agree that it is very much open to abuse by anyone who professes belief in the Bible as the word of God? Either the Holy Ghost does guide the believer to do his bidding or it does not. What must we do about those who abuse their children by justifying it with the divine word of God??? Why can't we use our reason and admit that it is not Gods word at all and call the bull-s***ters out?

You seem like a reasoning type of person, which is why I don't understand why you don't admit that the Bible is ambiguous and will be used by anyone who claims it as Gods word – whether they are sadistic, psychopathic, monsters or angelic mild mannered gentlemen(such as your Dad).

I can think of only one other book which can be used in this way. All manner of barbarous acts are committed every day all around the world in the name of both the Bible and the Koran. All of them can claim justification somewhere between their pages.

That's the trouble with Holy Books!!

Stanley S. Chesters

Nate Phelps – wasnt that the same guy who left his three children to run away with a chick he met over the 'net? No wonder they drove from Canada to Georgia for the conference. Southwest would have charged Nate for two seats.

As a Christian, I know that not all religion is child abuse. Nate was just an extreme case. I sure hope he doesn't abuse his kids – is he still even in contact with them? – like he claims that Fred abused him. I feel sorry for Nate's kids, caught in the crossfire of all this.

Why feel guilty? The very nature of parenting is that it requires some sort of brainwashing and debilitating a chid's mind, by religious means or not. It's the very purpose of parenting: making a child acceptable for human society. It's a painful process to become "normal" and "appropriate", and can only be achieved by abuse. (Read '1984' – the most enlightening book on the techniques and the mindset of parent-child relationships. It was a quest of self-understanding for me to read it.)

I grew up in a secular household but I've been beaten/starved/made to do housework/otherwise tortured a lot. Even now, I'm afraid my mother, though she's much weaker than me. Other children were like you, not abused physically but scarred in the mind forever. Even others fell sort of in between. Only the means differ, and maybe the extent, but the purpose is the same: to kill individuality.

fizlove

Well, I too, would recommend anyone to read Nineteen Eighty Four but certainly not as a "How To" for raising children in the 21st centruy! We have moved on since the 1940s when Orwell wrote it. As a dystopic view of human nature and a preview of how we could all end up abused by power certainly, but please – don't suggest that we are all born abnormal and inappropriate and need to be abused into good behaviour – that is a big ERROR on your part. If you think about it, the idea that we are born abnormal and inappropriate stinks of Original Sin and shows just how long the shadow of christian teaching has projected into the secular view of humanity. Most people reading this post will have some idea of the connection between this "little dogma" and the abuse of children in it's name. It's long overdue to stop propagating it .

Read some up-to-date psychology books – and get your head into some books about child development by modern scholars/practitioners. You will learn about the difference between ABUSE and discipline or boundary making and guidance (which children crave, actually).

By-the-way – whether mild or revolting, the abuse we suffered by our up-bringing is not a blueprint for the future – we all have to learn from our parents' mistakes too. It is up to the ones who manage to rise above the abuse to speak out and to further the changes in society which make us better than them. Yes – better than them!

I have to disagree that the nature of parenting is to brainwash children. This is the attitude of a controlling person and perhaps someone not really understanding the role of a parent. Each child is a separate person that eventually must make their own way in life and a good parent will teach them to think rationally and avoid dogmatic thinking at all costs. Our brains are flexible and we should realize that the essence of life is change. Where people get in trouble is they try to hold on to outdated ideas that are no longer appropriate. Children are not empty vessels that parents should try to fill with ideas and attitudes. Each life is a journey and the goal should be to equip children for the journey not insist they follow the road you personally have followed or the road you think is best for them. Ask questions and never be satisfied with pat answers. Make people substantiate what they tell you is the truth.

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